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Topic: US Politics

Trump confirms plan to send illegal immigrants to sanctuary cities. Fair?

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Discussion started by Tok Staff:
Trump wanted to bus immigrants and illegal migrants to cities that resisted ICE in move to punish enemies, but officials pushed back (now fired). OK?
Background article: ... Read more
Results in this view: Y-fair Move 58% - Convince Me 17% - N-inhumane 25%
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By Ray Benter These people are NOT pawns for the dictator to shove around on a gameboard. They also are less likely to be rapists, murderers and criminals than our native-born fellow Americans. They are flesh and blood human beings, many of whom are running away from death threats and poverty like we can only imagine. Like all authoritarian rulers in the past, he will fail as long as decency and law and order can prevail.
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By Mark Tracey Yet, these people are pawns of the Democrats. The Democrats want open boarders, The Democrats won’t fund the wall, the Democrats won’t provide funds to hold them at the board, so it is only fitting that Trump provide the Democrats what they want as demonstrated by their actions , send the illegal immigrants to the places they are most wanted, the sanctuary cities.
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By Dan Anderson No, Mark - NOBODY wants open "boarders" as you call them. The wall is not the problem. It is that the vast majority of aliens entering the country illegally are coming in through ports of entry, NOT through the desert lands. The majority of current illegal aliens came in with legal visas but overstayed their visas.

Would it not be better money spent on increased security at the ports of entry, which would not only take care of the vast majority of entering illegal aliens as well as the influx of narcotics and other illegal substances?
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By Mark Tracey I will disagree that nobody wants “open boarders,”those words have been used many times by many politicians.
All aspects of immigration must be addressed and both sides are polarized and are posturing for the nenift of the extremes, inable to event talk about finding reasonable solutions. The first thing to address is to stop tin inflow of illegals and then there can be talk of the other aspects of the problem.
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By Dan Anderson Mark - since you are making the positive claim about politicians saying they want open borders (no, not boarders), please name a few of them with citation.

Until Mr. 45 decided to make his noise, threatening to close the southern border, the number of illegal aliens had been dropping steadily since 2000. Maybe one should look at WHERE the aliens are coming from and work on THAT area. (Hint: It is not across the desert and over the wall.)
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By Mark Tracey
If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it’s a duck.
“Democratic National Committee deputy chairman and congressman Keith Ellison has passionately and persistently advocated his position that national borders, specifically the southern border, create “an injustice.”
In a recent interview, Ellison suggested that because corporations “can go back and forth across the border seeking out the lowest wages,” regular people should be able to “go back and forth across the border seeking out the highest wages.” Not only is this statement in itself completely detached from reality, but it seems to suggest that if we cannot have wide open borders, then we must not have free trade at all. These remarks come just weeks after Ellison wore a shirt that read “yo no creo en fronteras,” which in English translates into “I do not believe in borders.”-The Hill

“Senate Democrats are now pushing a bill that would effectively establish "catch and release" as federal policy.
In the past, immigrant families caught crossing the border illegally who claimed asylum would be detained briefly, then asked to return at a later date for their asylum hearing. President Trump's "zero tolerance policy" was an attempt to end this "catch and release" policy, which only encourages illegal border crossings.
Democrats know that only a tiny fraction of supposed asylum-seekers ever show up for those hearings. The rest become part of the ever-growing pool of illegal immigrants living in the country.
So, making catch and release the policy of the land amounts to an open invitation to anyone who wants to cross the border illegally. Just come with children, claim asylum, and you're in.”-Investors Business daily
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By Dan Anderson Mark - You supposedly cut and pasted this, but did not give citation. That rather minimizes the validity of your "comment." Any date?
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By Mark Tracey Both IBD Nd The Hill were from July 2018. The actions of the Democrates in general have matched the rhetoric from before an since that time.
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By Dan Anderson Mark - So you have no offer of citation? Oh, well. One could have always hoped. I guess I was wrong about you even that much more.
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By Ray Benter 2018 - most recent year for which stats are collected. Usually government stats are even further behind, depending on the issue and how well departments aer working to report what they have. As most dept. heads in the tRump admin. are there to sabotage the work of actually governing, I'm surprised the stats were available at all.
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By Ray Benter I am a Democrat and I know hundreds of Democrats from working in campaigns. NONE of us want open borders. Trump was given a very fair compromise bill to fix the immigration problems and refused to sign it. He is not used to compromise and seems incapable of knowing how the government can be made to work. Question for you Mark, what would you do with the Dreamers? Brought here at very young age and raised, schooled here, working here, furthering their education here. Send them back to a place they do not know? Or provide a strict path to citizenship like the Dem bill said??
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By Ray Benter If the GOP would treat Mexican immigrants like people and not "animals" (Agent Orange's term for them) then as many or even most of them who become citizens would vote Republican. They are predominantly Catholic and anti-abortion. But treating them like the scum of the earth drives them to the liberal side. Here is what happened during the obama admin. concerning immigration:

1. In 2013 Democrats wrote and passed a bi-partisan immigration reform bill in the Senate.

2. House Republicans refused to allow the bill to even be debated.

3. Obama asked Republicans to come up with their own immigration bill.

4. They refused.

5. Then they demanded that Obama do something about immigration. So, Obama used his executive authority to enact some immigration reforms.

6. Republicans were outraged and called Obama a tyrant for doing what they told him they wanted.

That is pretty much where it languishes today Trump doesn't want to do anything because it would negate his strongest issue with his base.
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By Mark Tracey Why is the bill labeled bi-partisan when the Republicans would not allow it to be debated on the floor? The truth is labliling bills parisen or bi-partisan is not useful very likely much that was in the bill was not bi-partisan and labeling it as such, is a misdirection. I also believe the labeling of Republican and Democrat are out moded and pigeon-holes opinion to a struck party line. You yourself stated that many Democrats don’t want open borders and I know many (most?) Republican don’t are not opposed to immigration, but we are locked in this immigration battle at a complete stand still by the dogmas of the respective party leaders.
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By Dan Anderson Mark - Tell your Tangerine Man to stop being a spoiled little brat, to stop throwing childish rants and temper tantrums and try compromise for a change. Remember, you can write him at www.whitehouse.gov.
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By Ray Benter The bill was labeled bi-partisan when it was passed in the Senate on a 68-32 vote on June 27, 2013. 14 of those votes were Republicans. Then, when it went to the House, Boehner refused to even let it come up for discussion.

"The bill directed the Secretary of Homeland Security to submit two reports on border security strategy, including one on where fencing, infrastructure and technology should be used; authorized the use of the National Guard to help secure the border; called for an increase in the number of Border Patrol agents at the southern border, and other border security measures. It also included provisions to allow immigrants in the country illegally to adjust their immigration status, if they met certain criteria."

Boehner said, "The House is going to do its own job in developing an immigration bill." But the House never did.

It showed that agreements can be reached, but in this instance and also in 2006 the same thing happened where 14 GOP Senators voted for an imporoved immigration bill but the House refused to even debate it.

That is what has broken down, the entire Republican Party has gone way off the rails since a black man held the highest office and they decided to oppose every single thing the man and his party brought up. Obamacare is the primary example of how wrong the GOP was and continues to be in their entrenchment against healthcare for all and how they have yet to propose their replacement for Obamacare which was tremendously flawed because it was Obama's major legisltaive accomplishment. Now the Cheato in Chief says his wonderful healthcare plan will be revealsed AFTER the 2020 election. LOL What a con man.

Nearly every good thing done for We The People over recent decades has been written and predominantly passed by Democrats. The GOP has been wonderful for the wealthy, corporations and banks.

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2005/10/14/156663/- started (bills written) by Democrats.
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By Mark Tracey Reguarding the bipartisan bill, if less than a third of the Republicans voted for it, it is a stretch to claim it is truly bipartisan . The devil is always in the details . I would bet large sums of money on the fact the terms in the bill that you didn’t point out would be very problematic for Republicans and conservatives to accept. Your point is taken on the fact that the Republicans did not produce a bill to offer in its place.
Your contention that Republicans ran off the rails because Obama is black is untrue and racially decisive. It all about his politics, he could have been Lilly white and gotten the same response with his political agenda. If you wish to go line by line, bill by bill as to which party has done the best job, let’s find a neutral observer to judge as as you are clearly bias as am I.
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By Dan Anderson Mark - Bi-partisan means there were people on both sides who voted for it. It was NOT down party lines. Does that help you to understand what this means, now?
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By Mark Tracey Thank you for that education, in technical terms you may be correct, but from a practical sense unless it is at or near 50/50 it won’t qualify in most minds.
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By Dan Anderson Opinion, Mark, is not a basis for defining legalese.

Most minds? You mean YOUR mind, right?
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By Mark Tracey Opinions are expressed on all sides, on all issues found on TOK, including you. You don’t get to disqualify my interpretation out of hand.
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By Dan Anderson Mark - Misusing terms as defined by society is not just an opinion. It is a qualified form of definition which shows your use was inaccurate.
Anonymous-user
by anon-ebda Comprehensive Immigration Reform !!!
Anonymous-user
by anon-ebda Pathway to citizenship !!!!
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By Mark Tracey That is in fact what is needed, but neither party can agree on the terms. The Democrats want open borders and unlimited immigration, the Republicans want secure borders and selective immigration.
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By Ray Benter That is a lie.
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By Mark Tracey First it’s my opinion based on what I know and it’s obvious to me you disagree, so what is the truth?
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By Dan Anderson Mark - AGAIN, Democrats do NOT want open borders and unlimited immigration! That is a complete falsehood.

https://medium.com/s/story/few-americans-want-open-borders-democrats-included-dba12884c133

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/27/us/politics/fast-check-donald-trump-democrats-open-borders.html

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By Ray Benter In as much as most business persons (including farmers) are Republicans and it is businesses (many in agriculture) who hire illegals, I could also say that Republicans are the ones who want open borders. But I know that isn't true; and it's not true of Democrats either.

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By Mark Tracey No, not a complete falsehood. Democrats have fought every aspect of border control since Trump has been in office.

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it’s a duck.

“Democratic National Committee deputy chairman and congressman Keith Ellison has passionately and persistently advocated his position that national borders, specifically the southern border, create “an injustice.”
In a recent interview, Ellison suggested that because corporations “can go back and forth across the border seeking out the lowest wages,” regular people should be able to “go back and forth across the border seeking out the highest wages.” Not only is this statement in itself completely detached from reality, but it seems to suggest that if we cannot have wide open borders, then we must not have free trade at all. These remarks come just weeks after Ellison wore a shirt that read “yo no creo en fronteras,” which in English translates into “I do not believe in borders.”-The Hill

“Senate Democrats are now pushing a bill that would effectively establish "catch and release" as federal policy.
In the past, immigrant families caught crossing the border illegally who claimed asylum would be detained briefly, then asked to return at a later date for their asylum hearing. President Trump's "zero tolerance policy" was an attempt to end this "catch and release" policy, which only encourages illegal border crossings.
Democrats know that only a tiny fraction of supposed asylum-seekers ever show up for those hearings. The rest become part of the ever-growing pool of illegal immigrants living in the country.
So, making catch and release the policy of the land amounts to an open invitation to anyone who wants to cross the border illegally. Just come with children, claim asylum, and you're in.”-Investors Business daily
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By Mark Tracey I’d agree that there are Republicans who want cheap illegals to wok the farms and that is wrong. Immigration policy allows citizens of Mexico’s to enter on work visas as needed, but lose that privilege and face deportation if the overs stay and that is not being funded supported and enforce creating a defecto open border. Add to that educational, social services expenses and next the right to vote. At that point we have given up our sovereignty.
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By Dan Anderson Double-posting does not get you any credit. You are still lacking the citation for this article, i.e., date?

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By Dan Anderson Mark - Illegal aliens are not qualified to receive ANY social services benefits and no, they will not have the right to vote.

Yes. those who overstay their visas are far more a problem, yet why is it Mr. 45 is not addressing that issue? Instead, he is holding a temper tantrum about his wall, which already exists?

Would it not make far more sense to spend all of that money on Port of Entry security, where the majority of the drugs and other illegal products as well as illegal aliens come in? That is what the Democrats want.

Would it not also be far more benefit to keep track of the overstay aliens through better security systems?
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By Ray Benter Just a quick note about your statement that, "Democrats know that only a tiny fraction of supposed asylum-seekers ever show up for those hearings."
According to Justice Department data from the last five available years, around 60 to 75 percent of non-detained migrants have attended their immigration court proceedings.
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By Ray Benter https://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2018/jun/26/wolf-blitzer/majority-undocumented-immigrants-show-court-data-s/
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By Mark Tracey You failed to note the difference between asylum seekers and economic migrants, which is a far larger group.
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By Dan Anderson Mark - NO, Democrats do NOT want open borders. They are also not in favor of unlimited immigration.

You need to stop breaking your Christian 9th Commandment.
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By Ray Benter The immigration/assylum situation could be solved if compromise still worked in Congress. Dems want border security, but also want the Dreamers allowed to continue to live here while following a path to citizenship. There was a time Republicans (including the Gang of 8) also wanted what is fair for these people. But in their efforts to demonize a whole race of people, separate them from their children and imprison the kids in cages, the GOP has forgotten how to be human beings with a heart. Nazis!
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By Mark Tracey You still don’t acknowledge that Obama instituted the separation of children from parents and put them in “cages” I wont even attempt to explain the reasons why if you can’t accept that.
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By William Dykeman would they not be better taken care of in sanctuary cities? where we are told they are welcomd with open arms?