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Topic: Environment

Trump team plans to shrink national monuments, open to hunting/fishing. Agree?

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Discussion started by Tok Staff:
Trump's interior secretary is signing orders to reduce number, size of national monuments and open more to hunting and fishing. Right use of resources?
Background article: ... Read more
Results in this view: Y-use Resources 19% - Covince Me 0% - N-unnecessary 13% - N-raping Nature 69%
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By Dominic Milan I believe the Antiquities Act permits the creation of parks/monuments, not their destruction. He might want to talk to the Governors who are going to have to explain why their state tourism industry got decimated.
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Anonymous-user
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By Ronald Nixon If they don't like it, they can move too China !
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By Kirby Liberty Harris Making the parks available for other recreational options may make tourism go up.
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By Larry W. Gray Oh, yeah, dead animals littering the ground during hunting season the National Parks will do wonders for tourism.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris Larry, near where I live the Shenandoah National Park in the Blue Ridge Mountains open the park for hunting during Hunting Season to thin the dear population, so they don't die off. During that time they close off parts of the park. This has been done since the days of FDR.
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By Larry W. Gray But it is not just for hunting that Trump wants to open the National Parks, he wants to open them to oil/gas/mineral exploitation as well, that is the main reason. Him and his billionaire buddies don't get rich from hunting license fees.
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By Larry W. Gray "...he wants to prioritize energy development over conservation." Hunting is just a ruse to get at what they REALLY want. Hunting licenses for thinning herds have been done on federal lands for generations.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris I never heard that oil/gas/mineral removal was part of it and don't know how allowing hunting opens up the door for that. Now that is a whole nother ball game. I don't have a problem with that either, as long as it can be done without harming things. It could be done in ways to limit any harm.
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By Larry W. Gray Yes, what harm could possibly happen in a National Park once it is opened for oil drilling or mineral extraction? Maybe you should pay closer attention to a story, instead of just conveniently leaving out any of the details that don't support your view of these "harmless" Trump policies?
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  • | about 1M ago
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By Kirby Liberty Harris Dude, I am not supporting Trump policies or leaving out any convenient details. I am saying it should be looked at. Not that it should or should not be done. You are doing the what if game, without seeing if it is possible safely.
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By Larry W. Gray "...he wants to prioritize ENERGY DEVELOPMENT OVER CONSERVATION." That is, in your words, "a whole nother ballgame." You think that Trump's buddies in the oil/gas/mineral businesses to care whether they "limit any harm" in our, once, National Parks?
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  • | about 1M ago
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By Larry W. Gray What "should be looked at," energy development? These people don't care about conservation or protecting our National Parks system. "Hunting" is just a ruse to make it sound harmless. And by even saying that any of this "should be looked at," you ARE supporting Trump policies. "Limiting harm" is not in Trump's vocabulary, he cares about money, and nothing but money, other than himself.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris I don't care who comes up with a policy, IF it could be a good one. IF we let energy do this Congress could have strict restrictions that require conservation and other things.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris Like with any POTUS most of their policies I hate, but some of them I like.
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By Larry W. Gray It's never a good policy to drill for oil, or mine coal, or any other extractive activity in our National Parks. That is the point of having them. Areas that are left in their natural state for Americans now and Americans far into the future.
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  • | about 1M ago
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By Larry W. Gray What policies, exactly, of Trump's do you like?
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By Kirby Liberty Harris Very few. Especially since he never defines them. If he means it then the abolishment of Obamacare (since it is a give away to the Insurance Companies), lowering taxes (with the cutting of spending), against foreign intervention and a few others. But like I said IF he is truly for those things.
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  • | about 1M ago
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By Larry W. Gray I hate to break the news but the general public HATED his attempt to get rid of "Obamacare." It is actually more favorable after the attempt then it was before. Cutting 20 million people out of health insurance, no mater who gets paid, is a cold hearted, cynical move, very much in character.
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  • | about 1M ago
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By Kirby Liberty Harris ^ Answer to directly above question^ I disagree. Those people should have never gotten healthcare paid for by others. The cold hardheartedness was giving people something they had no business getting without paying for it themselves. Obamacare has made healthcare more expensive, because it was created by insurance companies and O let them.
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By Larry W. Gray Oh, you're a real humanitarian, aren't you, pal? Blithely writing off 20 million Americans as "those people," shows that you have the empathy and human feelings of a bathroom scale. You're a fine example of Republican Party "trickle-down" humanity. Congratulations!
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By Kirby Liberty Harris Dude, I am one of those who can't afford insurance and would get it free with medicaid expansion and keeping fascist care. And NO, I am not a Republican and don't support trickle down humanity or economics. I am for fairness and tax cuts for ALL!
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By Larry W. Gray Well, then, let's hope you don't need medical care. Better the money go to the rich, right?
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By Kirby Liberty Harris I want everybody to keep their money instead of the government stealing it all and giving it all to their corporate masters. Trump, Obama, Hillary, Bushes..all of them bought and sold.
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By Larry W. Gray And meanwhile, let's throw at least 13 million Americans off of their health insurance, because basically they are parasites on the system, so better to cut them, and their families, "dependence" on the government by not helping them have any coverage at all. If they HAD the money, they wouldn't be in this position. And where, exactly, do these newly freed up monies go? To our "corporate masters" and top five percenters, like TRUMP. You're barking up the wrong tree here, pal.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris They should have NEVER been on it. IF someone sells you stolen property, then demands it back...then you are not wrong for taking it back. NO, the money goes to "corporate masters" and top five percenters, like TRUMP with OBAMACARE. They wrote the law to force the government to force us to buy their product. The money spent on 'free healthcare' goes out of our pockets and in their pockets.
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By Larry W. Gray Again, you with your "they," as if you are somehow superior to them, because any benefit to the needy or underprivileged, is money out of YOUR pocket. You are a sterling example of the heartlessness and emotional vacuum occupied by most people who are like you, in other words, Republicans. You know, those people who would begrudge needy families and children of their food stamps or basic medical needs, because they are just lazy low lifes who don't deserve these "perks," paid for by morally upstanding citizens like YOU. Go to hell.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris I am not a sterling example of heartless or emotional vacuum. I think that those who cause high taxes, which stagnates the economy, so 'they' can't afford healthcare are the heartless and emotional vacuum types, taking from some against their will to give to others that which is not theirs.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris No, I do not use 'they, because I am think I am superior. I could be they. if my state had done medicaid expansion, but they did not. I complain because it is money out of other's pockets, not mine, because we make so little we don't pay very high taxes.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris IF ALL the rich liberal Hollywood stars and liberal billionaires would give up a large amount of their money and create a non-profit, instead of forcing others to pay, especially people who don't make much, then they could END hunger, poverty, homelessness and lack of healthcare.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris I was taught thou shall not steal. And taught to help the poor, a hand up not a hand out. And I do give to the poor, in this country and others. I go out on the street and bring folks food and supplies. I give of my own free will, not force government to do it for me.
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By William Dykeman if they have to raise everyones taxes to make sure no one goes with out health care or housing or food , then so be it , the bible tells you to share and every decent society provides for those in society unable to make it the problem with people like you is you don't pay enough taxes, we need to go after tax cheats if we forced those to pay that evade taxes if we jailed them and took their sh&^ , then those that do pay taxes and obey the law(as is commended by bible verse Romans 13:6 ) then the law abiding could get a tax cut and the budget would be balanced we need to hunt down tax cheats, arrest them and take eeverything they have and give it to the state to redistribute
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By William Dykeman Romans 13:6 Romans 13:6 Romans 13:5
Therefore, it is necessary to submit to authority, not only to avoid punishment, but also as a matter of conscience.
5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to authority, not only to avoid punishment, but also as a matter of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes. For the authorities are God’s servants, who devote themselves to their work. 7Pay everyone what you owe him: taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.…
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By William Dykeman 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to authority, not only to avoid punishment, but also as a matter of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes. For the authorities are God’s servants, who devote themselves to their work. 7Pay everyone what you owe him: taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.…
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By Larry W. Gray Then maybe you should stop referring to them as "they." And what do you propose to do about their health care if "they" don't have the money in THEIR pockets? Or do you just say they pay or they die? Like I said, you're a real humanitarian, just like that useless pos in the White House.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris ^ANSWER TO WILLIAM DYKEMAN DIRECTLY ABOVE^

Quit twisting scripture. The bible tells you to help the poor privately. It NEVER says use the government to do it. So I am obeying the Bible, because I do give privately. The Bible says not to steal, that includes stealing using the government..
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By Kirby Liberty Harris Also, in our system, "WE THE PEOPLE" are the authority. And we the people can not steal, even collectively.
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By Larry W. Gray "Steal" what? Healthcare? You act like health care is a possession of the government, accessible only to those who can pay. Nice society...for machines. But I suppose 20 million people can let people like you, who "help privately," determine if they live or die, based on your benevolence to them. So how many adults and children, can we put you down as official sponsor of their very lives? That's mighty white of you, by the way.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris NO, I believe the opposite, the government does not own healthcare, it owns nothing. Steal refers to the money from others to pay for healthcare. So if people won't voluntarily help, then use the government to steal people's money to help.
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By Larry W. Gray While you would let them die because they don't have the money. Mighty white of you, pal.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris I would not let them die because they don't have the money. For one that is a false premise, because every emergency room and doctor would not let them die due to the Hippocratic oath. And again I am for private solutions, that would work, especially id rich Liberals would voluntarily give up even 10% OF THEIR MILLIONS.
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By Larry W. Gray How about rich Conservatives, hypocrite?
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By Kirby Liberty Harris And we need to kill ALL taxes except for mutual things like Military, police and roads. The rest is for private citizens to do.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris Billy you would arrest the victim using the thug that robbed them aka the government.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris Larry W. Gray said: "Then maybe you should stop referring to them as "they." And what do you propose to do about their health care if "they" don't have the money in THEIR pockets? Or do you just say they pay or they die? Like I said, you're a real humanitarian, just like that useless pos in the White House."
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By William Dykeman if we were more like canada or sweden everyone would be better off, this society is about to tear itself apart
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By Kirby Liberty Harris I disagree. Canada and Sweden are not good examples at all. If we would do what I suggest below we would all be better off.
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By William Dykeman https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/quality-of-life-full-list no they made a list canada is number one denmark is number two of the best countires to live in
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By Kirby Liberty Harris This is an opinion based on nanny taking care of them. If you could get everything paid for you would be happier. Doesn't make stealing from 'others' to get free stuff is OK.
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By William Dykeman its called sharing and the nanny state works
deal with it
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By Kirby Liberty Harris No its called theft and it does not work. It eventually crumbles. and even if it worked it is still wrong to steal.
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By William Dykeman taxation is a naeccessary evil we put up with to maintain civilization it is not theft it is a moral and civic duty the bible even says so
Romans 13:6 ►
Verse (Click for Chapter)
New International Version
This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing.
Obey Your Government Rulers
13 All of you must obey the government rulers. Everyone who rules was given the power to rule by God. And all those who rule now were given that power by God. 2 So anyone who is against the government is really against something God has commanded. Those who are against the government bring punishment on themselves. 3 People who do right don’t have to fear the rulers. But those who do wrong must fear them. Do you want to be free from fearing them? Then do only what is right, and they will praise you.

4 Rulers are God’s servants to help you. But if you do wrong, you have reason to be afraid. They have the power to punish, and they will use it. They are God’s servants to punish those who do wrong. 5 So you must obey the government, not just because you might be punished, but because you know it is the right thing to do.

6 And this is why you pay taxes too. Those rulers are working for God, and they give all their time to the work of ruling. 7 Give everyone what you owe them. If you owe them any kind of tax, then pay it. Show respect to those you should respect. And show honor to those you should honor.

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By Kirby Liberty Harris Our system is not set up the way government was then. Then the government were not of the people and so certain men only were the authorities, but now we the people are the authorities over those who govern.
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By William Dykeman if you have two shirts in your closet
one belongs to you
the other to the man who has no shirt -ambrose of milan
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By William Dykeman so? you still have to pay your taxes
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By Kirby Liberty Harris I respond. I told you want we could do. Create nonprofits to help buy them insurance. If the liberal billionaires and Hollywood types would voluntarily pay most of their money (like they tell others to do), then they could end poverty, hunger, homelessness and no healthcare.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris Also, like I said I do help the poor with food and items and pay for things voluntarily.
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By William Dykeman do you pay your taxes and yes i have the irs on speed dial
i have turned in friends(they arent friends any more) who constantly bragged about how he did not pay taxes he also agressively hit on women that worked for him
i was in law school and kne the girl he was trying to rape
he confronted me with a gun but did not have the guts to pull the trigger, i did not back donw i kept callng the police on him, as much as i hated guns i started carrying a taurus ultra lite 38 snub nose till he was arrested
i destoryed him well we did the irs nailed him he was sued for sexual harrassment and sexual assualt
his wife left him his business was basically confiscated and he went to jail for pointing his pistol at me in front of witnesses
i honestyl can not stand people who brag about not paying taxes
you make like hard for the system that needs your money
well actually it isnt your money you owe it it isnt yours at all
and it isnt fair to those who do pay
they figure if they could get all the dead beats to pay uP?
they could balance the budget and cut taxes for those who do pay
i actually used to do this for a livng i did have a law degree now?
its just a hobby
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By Kirby Liberty Harris Billy, I pay any taxes requested, because if I do not then the government mafia will cage me like an animal. As I have said I am fine with paying certain taxes for roads, police, military, ect. Things 99% of us all share and use, and can not be bought privately. But healthcare is not something we have to use and can buy privately. To tax for things like that is stealing.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris If I could only pay taxes for things I would use aka user fees, then I would. Then I would have more money to work with others to create a private hand up not hand out welfare system.
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By William Dykeman no you pay taxes according to what you are able to afford so other people that are poor and needy like the old the sick and children wont go hungry or freeze and no it doesntbother me they force you to pay taxres, i would gladly put the gun to your head, i'd even enjoy puling the trigger
but then i always did
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By William Dykeman Romans 13:6 ►
Verse (Click for Chapter)
New International Version
This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing.

New Living Translation
Pay your taxes, too, for these same reasons. For government workers need to be paid. They are serving God in what they do.

English Standard Version
For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing.

Berean Study Bible
This is also why you pay taxes. For the authorities are God's servants, who devote themselves to their work.

Berean Literal Bible
For because of this, you also pay taxes; for they are servants of God, attending continually upon this very thing.
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By William Dykeman and so they should
you act like you dont deserve a cage
i dont pity you
white men are so selfish
hey i'd enjoy locking the door and thrwing away the key
dont expect any pity from me
i've been hungry homelss i almost frooze to death one winter
sure you dont give a sh*& if i die
so i dont give a sh&^ about you!
f you
pay your taxes or enjoy the cage
i will
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By Kirby Liberty Harris Plus our system is not set up the way government was then. Then the government were not of the people and so certain men only were the authorities, but now we the people are the authorities over those who govern.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris Then you are an evil tyrant. I never said that taxes were not to be paid. I just state that what it pays for should only be certain things, not stealing to take from one give to the other, BUT only mutual things that all use but can't attain on their own. Health insurance, food and shelter can be obtained if one works to get it.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris BS, I do care. That is why I am for people to collectively and privately come together and invent private organizations to help feed , house and care for the health of the poor using a hand up method, not a hand out method.
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By William Dykeman you need to care more
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By William Dykeman “Should any political party attempt to abolish social security unemployment insurance and eliminate labor laws and farm programs you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group of course that believes you can do these things. Among them are a few other Texas oil millionaires and an occasional politician or business man from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid.”

― Dwight D. Eisenhower
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By Kirby Liberty Harris I care probably more than you do. i just disagree with what you think the government vs individuals should do. Individuals should privately work with others and solve these problems independent from government.
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By William Dykeman that is impossible trust me

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By Kirby Liberty Harris The other issue is to get government out where it drives up costs, so the prices would come back down. Many ways to fix this without forcing people who don't want to pay to pay.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris Also, Larry, if the government would remove the regulations that only allow businesses and organizations to pool into an insurance group, which would allow anyone to pool into an insurance group, then the charities could sign people up and give free to low cost insurance.
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By William Dykeman we nned more regualtions not less and and we need to socialize health care and turn it over to the government
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By William Dykeman we need more regualtions and taxes it works in california california is booming
The state's economy is not just big, but also booming -- growing faster than any nation. What's the secret?
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-06-06/california-makes-america-s-economy-great
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By Kirby Liberty Harris NO, government monopoly of healthcare would be just as bad IF we had a private monopoly on healthcare. Keep government of my choices and my healthcare.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris Any parts of the California economy that may be booming is because of the free market. The Cali government is broke.
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By William Dykeman the california economy is the best in the world if california was an independent nation it would be the best performing economy in the world.. the free market is a marvelous producer of wealth iagree the state doesnt do a good job at that, what the state exist fr is to distribute resources to those left out.. and again it doesnt bother me if they put a gun to peoples heads especially rich white dudes..
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By William Dykeman maybe the german sustem has built in aspects to create competition. yet everyone gets quality care, i mean even the uk where the state runs the health service much of the care is now perfromed by private companies in the employ of the service and the uk has a private health market for the more well off, costa rica is the same they have a govt run service govt insuranc companies and a big private health market for those with money.. but there has to be something for those with nothing i think it should be equal for all people but hey. as long as care is rvided to all we can work from there
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By Kirby Liberty Harris But, the Cali government is bankrupt. they need to be bailed out.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris That is why I am for people to collectively and privately come together and invent private organizations to help feed , house and care for the health of the poor using a hand up method, not a hand out method.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris Matt Lauer could have lived of a million a year and gave the other 23 million he made a year to such an organization as I speak of. Instead he keeps his wealth and advocates forcing others to give. If every liberal did this voluntarily, then all the needs of the poor would be taken care of without forcing others who wish not to give by force.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris The middle and working man should pay zero taxes. I am for a low profit tax only, not an income tax, since income is trading your labor for a wage,
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By William Dykeman sure and yu make a good point but why should we, he pays his taxes, it should not be voluntary the government should confiscate 90% of everythng over a million none of them liberal or conservative need the money, but you do make a very valid point, most "liberals" are big hypocrites, i agree, the fact that all these so called liberal men like lauer franken conyers weinstien, are all being exposed as rapists proves what wprthless hypocrites liberal are, they talk the talk, but its all li service, at least right wingers lke roy moore admit they hate women and think they should be used as toilets paper, the right betrays its chritian values the left betrays their humanistic values, they are all frauds, i line them all against the wall come the revolution, i hate liberals, maybe more than you do, maybe more, i pretty much hate everyone now
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By William Dykeman According to data in the Taxing Wages 2017 report, the average across all 35 OECD member countries is for an individual to contribute just over a third of their pay packet to income tax and social security.

However, workers in the top 10 nations in this list all pay significantly higher than this.

After Belgians paying 54%, second and third place in the list belong to Germany and Hungary, where workers pay 49.4% and 48.2% respectively.

These lower-tax countries belong to a group of 14 OECD member states where the tax wedge is below average.

Among these is the US at 31.7%, Australia at 28.6% and Israel at 22.1%.

The lowest taxed OECD nations are Mexico at 20.1%, New Zealand at 17.9% and Chile at 7%.

While European nations have the highest tax rates for both individuals and families, there are a few low-tax European countries too.

Countries with tax wedges for single childless workers that fall below the OECD average of 36% include: Poland at 35.8%; the UK at 30.8%; Ireland at 27.1%; and Switzerland at 21.8%.

the average american worker pays about 32% about one third, that is a lot i would raise taxes on the rich and lower the average to about one fourth 25%
i think that would be a good step
i believe in incrementalism
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By William Dykeman https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/07/countries-where-people-pay-most-tax/
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By William Dykeman why what we have works fine
The real US poverty rate is 4.8%.

To explain this: way back when at the beginning of that War on it poverty was defined. The definition being a nourishing but basic food budget for a family of the size being discussed, multiplied by three. Yes, an oddity but looking around at that time, in the early 1960s, people (actually, largely, a Ms. Orshansky) noted that poor families spent about one third of their income on food. Rather a rough and reay definition but that's still the US definition today. All we've done since then is upgrade the number for inflation.

So, from James Pethokoukis:

Here’s another way of looking at American poverty. The official US poverty rate is 14.8% — with an update due next month — or 2.3 percentage points higher than in 2007, a year which ended with the official start of the Great Recession. By comparison, the poverty rate in 1964 when LBJ announced the War on Poverty was 19%. So some improvement in that top-line number.

Not looking good so far. Now recast the numbers to take account of the effort we put into poverty alleviation:

Figure 2 provides a first approximation of how correcting the 2013 poverty rate for noncash food and housing benefits, refundable tax credits, and upward bias in the CPI–U would change the 2013 poverty rate. With these corrections the official poverty rate falls from 14.5 to 4.8 percent, making the 2013 rate roughly a quarter of the 1964 rate (19.0 percent). If we were to lower the poverty threshold for cohabiting couples to match that for married couples the 2013 poverty rate would have fallen even more.

I'll not steal an illustration from the NYRB but the table is as follows:

Official percent poor in 1964 19.0%

Official percent poor in 2013 14.5%

Reductions to correct for:

Value of non-cash benefits -3.0%

Refundable tax credits -3.0%

Change in inflation index -3.7%