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Topic: Europe

Spain tries to block Catalan independence vote, 450+ hurt: how will this end?

  • Comments: 239 |
  • Votes: 15
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Discussion started by Tok Staff:
Spanish police shut down more than 100 polling stations and clashed with protesters: will this devolve into further violence or will the sides pull back and talk?
Background article: ... Read more
Results in this view: Independence 11% - More Autonomy 11% - Convince Me 0% - Civil War 78%
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By William Dykeman For god sake let them vote
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Anonymous-user
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By Kirby Liberty Harris Why? Rights don't exist.
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  • | over 2y ago
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By William Dykeman well this proves me point they say they can vote but can they?
now they will have to fight for their rights
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  • | over 2y ago
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By Kirby Liberty Harris Just because someone denies your rights, doesn't mean they do not exist. TheDeclaration of Independence says we have these rights naturally which gives us the right to declare independence and break away from government that denies these natural rights with violence if necessary.
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  • | over 2y ago
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By Kirby Liberty Harris That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it,
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  • | over 2y ago
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By Kirby Liberty Harris and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
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  • | over 2y ago
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By Kirby Liberty Harris We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. <<Natural rights
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  • | over 2y ago
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By William Dykeman thats just a peice of paper
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  • | over 2y ago
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By William Dykeman what is your point?
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  • | over 2y ago
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By Kirby Liberty Harris My point is the people of Catalonia and all people have the natural right to declare independence to governments that ignore their rights.
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  • | over 2y ago
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By William Dykeman okay we may agree on this too
but not other stuff
i'm a socialist
i've been to Catalonia
the people are very left wing and support socialism
as do the kurds i support all democratic socialist revolutions
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  • | over 2y ago
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By Kirby Liberty Harris Socialism isn't' always democracy look at state communism (which is a dictator who forces socialism on the people), and absolute democracy is impossible and can be tyrannical, and is why the Founders put in blocks to spread the power of government around.
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  • | over 2y ago
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By William Dykeman i know that duh
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  • | over 2y ago
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  • | over 2y ago
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By William Dykeman and dictatorship is not always bad
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  • | over 2y ago
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By Kirby Liberty Harris Dictatorships are always bad. And you claim to be for the people and their rights. PSH!
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  • | over 2y ago
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By William Dykeman on the contrary often there is no alternative and the order established saves lives and promotes progress
the most basic freedom is to feel safe in your home
and many dictatorships provide just that for the vast majority
only a few trouble makers disappear
what of it?
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  • | over 2y ago
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  • | over 2y ago
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By Kirby Liberty Harris All of ours do.
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  • | over 2y ago
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  • | over 2y ago
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By Kirby Liberty Harris Do what you said.
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  • | over 2y ago
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By William Dykeman what was that?
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  • | over 2y ago
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  • | over 2y ago
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By William Dykeman i'm confused
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  • | over 2y ago
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By Kirby Liberty Harris Nope dictatorships never are good.
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  • | over 1y ago
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By William Dykeman you dont value or support democracy by defination you endorse dictatorship
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  • | over 1y ago
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By Kirby Liberty Harris Lol, your the one who says you want dictatorship. I am against it and what I speak is the opposite.
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  • | over 1y ago
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By William Dykeman i would prefer a marshall tito to our present franco
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  • | over 1y ago
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By William Dykeman then why do you support dictatorship in all but name?
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  • | over 1y ago
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By Kirby Liberty Harris I dont promote dictatorship in all but name. Never have. Quite the opposite. Show me where I have advocated it. You're making stuff up.
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  • | over 1y ago
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By Kirby Liberty Harris I prefer neither.
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  • | over 1y ago
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By William Dykeman yes you do
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  • | over 1y ago
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By Kirby Liberty Harris No security should never override liberty. Those that think so deserve, neither liberty nor security. Ben Franklin.
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  • | over 1y ago
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By William Dykeman there is no liberty unless security and order exists, it is impossible
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  • | over 1y ago
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By William Dykeman WITTES: He was writing about a tax dispute between the Pennsylvania General Assembly and the family of the Penns, the proprietary family of the Pennsylvania colony who ruled it from afar. And the legislature was trying to tax the Penn family lands to pay for frontier defense during the French and Indian War. And the Penn family kept instructing the governor to veto. Franklin felt that this was a great affront to the ability of the legislature to govern. And so he actually meant purchase a little temporary safety very literally. The Penn family was trying to give a lump sum of money in exchange for the General Assembly's acknowledging that it did not have the authority to tax it.
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  • | over 1y ago
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By William Dykeman ironically the comment was about the ability of the government to tax rich people ben position was of course the government has thastauthority especially to genrate funds for a SECURITY FORCE! did you know thast!?
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  • | over 1y ago
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By William Dykeman game set match, thank you ben for proving my point for me, good ole ben
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  • | over 1y ago
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  • | over 1y ago
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By William Dykeman https://www.npr.org/2015/03/02/390245038/
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  • | over 1y ago
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By Kirby Liberty Harris Let's not do this again. I never said you throw out security nor some type of order, nor did Ben Franklin. We are saying that you cant sacrifice liberty for security. Those willing to deserve neither liberty or security.
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  • | over 1y ago
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By William Dykeman there is no liberty without security none ad ben frankiln said as much if you read further than that misquoted quote, he was in fact argument the state had the right to tax to raise funds for border SECURITY.. did you know that??
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  • | over 1y ago
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By Kirby Liberty Harris I know this history, but it still was about not forsaking liberty for security. Checkmate.
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  • | over 1y ago
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By William Dykeman he litrally was arguing for the right to tax to genrae finds for a secirty force. and you wont admit i beat you? how dishonest a man is who lives off his wife
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  • | over 1y ago
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By Kirby Liberty Harris Of course you need funds to have any security ... private, public, border or any other.
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  • | over 1y ago
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By Kirby Liberty Harris It's not misquoted. He meant it. I never claimed he was against security, just not for sacrificing liberty for it.
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  • | over 1y ago
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By Kirby Liberty Harris Ben's quote does not mean the opposite of what it says. That is an opinion. The guy and Brookings are big government, pro surveillance state and for big taxes. Very biased. Nice try.
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  • | over 1y ago
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By William Dykeman no its a solid fact
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  • | over 1y ago
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By Kirby Liberty Harris No, it's a mushy opinion.
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  • | over 1y ago
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By William Dykeman please explain
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  • | over 1y ago
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By Kirby Liberty Harris The event that brought the quote is fact, but the interpretation is opinion.
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  • | over 1y ago
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  • | over 1y ago
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By William Dykeman its a fact i have proven over and over
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  • | over 1y ago
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By Kirby Liberty Harris You have proven nothing. Just posted an conversation expressing an opinion of an event.
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  • | over 1y ago
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By Kirby Liberty Harris The proof is in the definition of opinion.
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  • | over 1y ago
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By William Dykeman did so a dozen times thats enough
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  • | over 1y ago
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By William Dykeman no it isnt
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  • | over 1y ago
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  • | over 1y ago
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By William Dykeman i bet she gets lonely
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  • | over 1y ago
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By Kirby Liberty Harris You would lose that bet. My wife and I spend plenty of time together. See you dont know how our life and time is structured, so you ASSume to much.
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  • | over 1y ago
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By William Dykeman you spend too much time here you make me spend too much time here, but go ahead, i have nothing but time
one can only spend so much time in bed dieing
what is your excuse?
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  • | over 1y ago
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By Kirby Liberty Harris LOL, first, I don't spend that much time here. The exception might be when I do this on the phone. I have stopped that, ONLY on my PC now.
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  • | over 1y ago
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By William Dykeman no? you are such a liar, either that or or mr crazy still doesnt know he is crazy
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  • | over 1y ago
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By Kirby Liberty Harris Explain? I want no man to force another. Opposite of dictatorship.
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  • | over 1y ago
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By William Dykeman force is part of democracy
you want the wealthy and the powerful to have the unrestraned power to force people to be slaves you must see that
“Advocates of capitalism are very apt to appeal to the sacred principles of liberty, which are embodied in one maxim: The fortunate must not be restrained in the exercise of tyranny over the unfortunate.”

― Bertrand Russell
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  • | over 1y ago
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By Kirby Liberty Harris LOL, I do not want anu group of men to force themselves on anyone, rather that be from government or a corporation. Did you not realize that crony capitalism can only exist with a state? That is why true Marxism is stateless.
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  • | over 1y ago
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By Kirby Liberty Harris Bertrand was taking about crony state capitalism, Marx and Ingles said that true Communism is stateless. Where they failed is where they said that you needed a dictator or bloody revolution to bring 'stateless communism' into existence. FAIL!!!
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  • | over 1y ago
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By Kirby Liberty Harris True democracy is force. That is why the US was set up to have representative democracy. And why they divided powers and added a bill of rights. The government is supposed to leave people alone UNLESS they harm others.
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  • | over 1y ago
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By Kirby Liberty Harris And Ia m not a liar nor crazy. When I am on my PC my response time is quick and takes little time. What does take time is when I do it on my phone. That is why I deleted it all off my phone.
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  • | over 1y ago
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By William Dykeman mr crazy doesnt know he crazy
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  • | over 1y ago
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By William Dykeman yes it is a force for good
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  • | over 1y ago
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By William Dykeman russell was a socialist like me, you are not qualified to say what he meant
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  • | over 1y ago
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By William Dykeman it wont be up to you
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  • | over 1y ago
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By Kirby Liberty Harris You don't know IF I am crazy or not (though I know I am not). None of the many Psyche evals I had to get for jobs or clearance over the years ever showed me as crazy.
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  • | over 1y ago
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By Kirby Liberty Harris Democracy is NOT a force, but a tool, and can be used for good or evil, depending on how it is used.

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  • | over 1y ago
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By Kirby Liberty Harris LOL, I am very qualified to say what he meant. Same as you. You don't have to be a socialist to know what he meant.

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  • | over 1y ago
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By Kirby Liberty Harris It wont be up to any of us. The 1%, crony capitalist/government elite are slowly enslaving the entire planet.
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  • | over 1y ago
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By Kirby Liberty Harris We all lose, cause they have us fighting each other.
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  • | over 1y ago