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Topic: US Politics

Does kneeling during the anthem disrespect the flag, those who fought for it?

  • Comments: 82 |
  • Votes: 53
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Discussion started by Tok Staff:
VP Pence leaves NFL game after Colts players kneel during anthem: players say it's not about respecting the flag, what do you think?
170730135719-mike-pence-donald-trump-super-tease
News.yahoo
Background article: Donald Trump just used Mike Pence for a PR stunt Donald Trump just used Mike Pence for a PR stunt CNN Analysis by Chris Cillizza, CNN Editor-at-large Updated 1233 GMT (2033 HKT) October 9, 2017 nfl protests trump zw js orig_00001313 Panelist: Trump's NFL remark shows privilege donald trump jefferson washington slaves sot_00004524.jpg Trump: Are Washington, Jefferson statues next? David Duke Trump Charlottesville protest nr_00000000.jpg Former KKK leader invokes Trump's name White nationalist demonstrators use shields as they clash with counter demonstrators at the entrance to Lee Park in Charlottesville, Virginia, Saturday, August 12, 2017. Hundreds of people chanted, threw punches, hurled water bottles and unleashed chemical sprays on each other Saturday after violence erupted at a white nationalist rally in Virginia. At least one person was arrested. Trump's words are making racism OK navarro don 8.15 Ana Navarro: Republicans need to grow a spine Trump calls white supremacists repugnant Republican Presidential candidate Donald Trump signs autographs for supporters at the conclusion of a Donald Trump rally at Millington Regional Jetport on February 27, 2016 in Millington, Tennessee. / AFP / Michael B. Thomas (Photo credit should read MICHAEL B. THOMAS/AFP/Getty Images) Trump: 'I know nothing about white supremacists' (2016) Trump to African-Americans: What do you have to lose? nfl protests trump zw js orig_00001313.jpgNOW PLAYING #TakeAKnee heats up on and off the field Trump responds after a day of NFL protests LAS VEGAS, NV - DECEMBER 19: Donald Trump appears at a news conference after the 2012 Miss Universe Pageant at PH Live at Planet Hollywood Resort & Casino on December 19, 2012 in Las Vegas, Nevada. (Photo by David Becker/Getty Images) Trump's 2013 tweet about the NFL NFL fan NFL fans split over anthem controversy LeBron James LeBron's video message: I can't stand for this Rex Ryan Trump NFL pissed orig vstan dlewis_00003104.jpg Ex-NFL coach who backed Trump: 'I'm pissed' SANTA CLARA, CA - SEPTEMBER 12: Colin Kaepernick #7 and Eric Reid #35 of the San Francisco 49ers kneel in protest during the national anthem prior to playing the Los Angeles Rams in their NFL game at Levi's Stadium on September 12, 2016 in Santa Clara, California. (Photo by Thearon W. Henderson/Getty Images) NFL star continues national anthem protest Panelist: Trump's NFL remark shows privilege donald trump jefferson washington slaves sot_00004524.jpg Trump: Are Washington, Jefferson statues next? David Duke Trump Charlottesville protest nr_00000000.jpg Former KKK leader invokes Trump's name White nationalist demonstrators use shields as they clash with counter demonstrators at the entrance to Lee Park in Charlottesville, Virginia, Saturday, August 12, 2017. Hundreds of people chanted, threw punches, hurled water bottles and unleashed chemical sprays on each other Saturday after violence erupted at a white nationalist rally in Virginia. At least one person was arrested. Trump's words are making racism OK navarro don 8.15 Ana Navarro: Republicans need to grow a spine Trump calls white supremacists repugnant Republican Presidential candidate Donald Trump signs autographs for supporters at the conclusion of a Donald Trump rally at Millington Regional Jetport on February 27, 2016 in Millington, Tennessee. / AFP / Michael B. Thomas (Photo credit should read MICHAEL B. THOMAS/AFP/Getty Images) Trump: 'I know nothing about white supremacists' (2016) Trump to African-Americans: What do you have to lose? nfl protests trump zw js orig_00001313.jpg #TakeAKnee heats up on and off the field Trump responds after a day of NFL protests LAS VEGAS, NV - DECEMBER 19: Donald Trump appears at a news conference after the 2012 Miss Universe Pageant at PH Live at Planet Hollywood Resort & Casino on December 19, 2012 in Las Vegas, Nevada. (Photo by David Becker/Getty Images) Trump's 2013 tweet about the NFL NFL fan NFL fans split over anthem controversy LeBron James LeBron's video message: I can't stand for this Rex Ryan Trump NFL pissed orig vstan dlewis_00003104.jpg Ex-NFL coach who backed Trump: 'I'm pissed' SANTA CLARA, CA - SEPTEMBER 12: Colin Kaepernick #7 and Eric Reid #35 of the San Francisco 49ers kneel in protest during the national anthem prior to playing the Los Angeles Rams in their NFL game at Levi's Stadium on September 12, 2016 in Santa Clara, California. (Photo by Thearon W. Henderson/Getty Images) NFL star continues national anthem protest Panelist: Trump's NFL remark shows privilege Washington (CNN)On Saturday, Vice President Mike Pence was in Las Vegas honoring the victims of the largest mass shooting in modern American history. Less than 24 hours later, he was in Indiana walking out of the Indianapolis Colts game against the San Francisco 49ers after several of the players failed to stand during the National Anthem. ... Read more
Results in this view: Y-unacceptable 26% - Y-that's Ok 9% - Convince Me 9% - N-not The Issue 57%
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By Steven Vanwormer It IS "the issue". Intentionally doing anything besides standing respectfully, is being disrespectful! The actions of the disloyal and unpatriotic NFL players demonstrate disrespect for "Old Glory", the Anthem, Veterans and all the people of the United States, past and present. They may in fact have a legal right to do it (since the NFL lets them). But my family and I also have the right to not watch it happen. I'm certainly not going to pay for it to happen, ever. I don't believe the NFL should receive any more public funds to finance privately owned stadiums. They should also lose any Federal "exemptions" from taxes or anti trust. NFL stadiums should be declared "off limits" for military personnel and there should be no more official participation or flyovers by the US military at NFL ceremonies.
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By Crysta Williams Sadly, the flag is no longer worth respecting with the Criminals in charge...
#LockUpTrump
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  • | about 1M ago
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By Steven Vanwormer Sadly people leap to absurd conclusions. The flag is symbolic of our right to choose among many other good things. The "people" chose in a lawful election and please don't spout off any Russian baloney, Russians didn't elect Trump. Americans did! If you don't have respect, the problem is most likely in you, not the flag!
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  • | about 1M ago
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By Larry W. Gray Oh, I see, since Americans elected trump, we should toss the Constitution. Trump wasn't elected by Americans, he was elected by ignorant fake patriots. And he lost the popular vote by three million votes.
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By Steven Vanwormer 3 million convicts and illegal aliens that shouldn't even have been registered, let alone voted!
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By Larry W. Gray Any positive idea that I have ever had about your intelligence has just been blown out of the water. You think that by saying that WIDELY DISCREDITED REPORT that it makes it true? Maybe you should stop watching Fox News, or, even better, go find the proof, from an independent, well-regarded source of information, then tell me what you found. I can't believe that you are so unaware of the facts concerning these "3 million" voters. By the way, isn't it convenient that the number of these "illegal" votes, is the same as the number of votes that Hillary Clinton won over Trump in the popular vote? How can you be so gullible?
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By Larry W. Gray No, unpatriotic" means abandoning the Constitutional Right to Freedom of Speech because you don't like how someone else practices it. Just another fake patriot for Trump.
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By Steven Vanwormer More name calling Larry, I thought we were past that. Even if it's not dis loyal, unpatriotic or illegal (which I haven't actually conceded), there is no question the NFL "protests" are bad business. From a marketing perspective they are a disaster. Anyone in marketing would tell you that you can't move a product (or an idea) by offending, alienating or microagressing your target audience. It is a microagression, even if that is not what they intend, and it is a microagression even if they don't even know they are microagressing. Though it would be pretty hard to get anyone to believe they don't "know" in light of freefalling NFL attendance, merchandise sales and TV Viewership. It seems like common sense, but common sense is more rare than moon rocks these days! And FYI my friend, the 1A does not grant anyone the right to "protest" at work, what it does is prevent the government from keeping you quiet! Most workers from "sea to shining sea" can't be political while at work (not even able to wear a HRC or MAGA hat) because most employers know that microagressing the customers is bad for business!
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By Larry W. Gray So, "1A does not grant anyone the right to "protest" at work." Really? Cite me the roof of that statement. The players have been doing this for quite a while, as is their right. The only thing that changed was that the pathetic waste of space in the White House needed a distraction from the ongoing investigations. When I say "fake patriots," they are exactly that. I might not like ANYTHING you have to say, but I served for 8 years in the U.S. Armed Forces to protect your right to say it. "fake patriots," those Trump supporters that wrap themselves in the flag and protest, oh so loudly, against this "disrespect" for the military. What would Trump know about the military? He got numerous deferments, and when those ran out, Daddy got a doctor to say that he had "bone spurs' in his feet. He is no better than any other draft dodger out there. Oh, but he's ALL ABOUT the military now! What changed? His precious little *ss isn't on the line now. He wouldn't know what a "patriot" was if it came up behind him and bit him on the *ss! The NFL will do just fine. This tempest in a teapot is a temporary thing, an "outrage"that was backed by Trump's loyal, and ignorant, followers. You know, treason used to be a serious charge. Getting help from a hostile foreign power to win the presidency, falls under that heading. A meeting, held in Trump Tower, attended by his SON, his SON-IN-LAW and his Campaign manager, with Russian government agents, and Trump KNEW NOTHING ABOUT IT? Do you seriously believe that? Well, Mueller's probe is getting ugly for Trump and Co., especially about financial crimes like money-laundering, which is a serious felony. I hope the whole rotten, traitorous gang, including his family members in the White House, gets dragged into the courts, and held responsible for their actions.
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By Steven Vanwormer The discussion wasn't about Trump. Trump wasn't President when the protests began and wasn't even expected to be president, no point in trying to blame him for it. Try to stay on topic. To answer your question.
Americans have traditionally "protested" at work by not going to work. Cite any business that has survived it's uniformed employees employees offending and microagressing the customers? You won't because anyone other than the spoiled/entitled rich crybabies in the NFL would get immediately fired for it. Harassing the NFL customers has nothing to do with their 1A rights. If they called a press conference (as their celebrity status would enable them to do) it would indeed be a 1A activity. They have been getting away with the "protests" for one reason and one reason only. The NFL (their employer) has been letting them get away with it! Even though it is doing irreparable damage to the NFL and its "Brand". like I said before, common sense is more rare than moon rocks!
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By Larry W. Gray But Trump was the dick who started making his fake patriot whine about the NFL players who protest. Just another piece of red neat for his knuckle-dragging fans. Maybe your personal antagonism towards the "spoiled/entitled rich crybabies" has more to do with it than any tortured version of the First Amendment.
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By Steven Vanwormer Not even a nice try this time Larry, this has even less to do with me than it does with the President. Like I said, this was an issue in contention prior to the President's arrival on the political stage in 2016. I'm sure like all leftists you disagree with his position on the issue (and you have the right to do so) but it is completely disingenuous to try and make him (or me) responsible for any of it. My personal antagonism toward the "spoiled/entitled rich crybabies" (which I freely admit) aside, my position on this issue was and remains unchanged. The "protests" are ineffective at best, at worst they are counter productive. I think they have been leaning much more toward counter productive. Even you and I aren't discussing "oppressed Americans" we are discussing the disrespect. That is an epic example of how bad the protests are on their own merits from a marketing point of view. On the other side of that coin is the ongoing damage done to the NFL. All estimates have it in the hundreds of millions of dollars in losses. Others have the estimates at over a billion already, and still counting. NFL sponsors are jumping ship left and right Check into Cash and Papa John's Pizza and others have already gone and Budweiser is taking preparatory steps to distance themselves from the NFL. The handwriting is on the wall as they say. You and I agree that NFL players have a right to protest anything they want. Where we disagree is your contention that the 1A grants them the right to protest while at work. Even for sake of argument that the DO have the right to protest at work, doesn't make it a good idea! In quick recap, the protests aren't spreading "the message" or winning anyone over to their cause, but they are putting the NFL out of business. In my estimation these protests are the number one worst marketing failure of all time and no crystal ball is needed to see where this is going! The only thing that remains to be determined is exactly when the NFL will say, "enough" and tell their employees "no more politics while in NFL uniform"! Wait for it...
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By Larry W. Gray The NFL will be around long after Trump and his disgusting family are chased out of Washington. Maybe someday you will learn what real patriotism is about, too bad you don't know now. Have fun burning your NFL merchandise in your BBQ, like all the other loyal Trumptards.
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By Steven Vanwormer really Larry, you should try to get past the name calling.
It isn't even an argument, when you stoop to that kind of tactic, it is abandoning the argument and moving right to surrender! The NFL is headed straight down full throttle and they aren't even giving the appearance of pulling back on the stick! I'll wager you can't find one professional business adviser that thinks this course of action by the NFL makes good business sense! The NFL most certainly won't be around in 2024 when the Trumps leave Washington, unless they pull up and soon. Whatever they do will be too little and too late IMO. You'll know it's "over" when Budweiser drops their NFL advertising. They have already made preliminary steps in that direction. Wait for it!
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By Larry W. Gray "The NFL most certainly won't be around in 2024 when the Trumps leave Washington..." LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!
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By Steven Vanwormer The kind of losses the NFL are experiencing are unsustainable. The NFL will eventually put an end to the protests on their time out of urgent necessity, but it will be too late by then. It's probably too late already! Many of the Americans that found other things to do on "game days" are tired of paying to be "microagressed" and won't be coming back even if the protests end. It's clear that the NFL doesn't even have an "end game". How do you see this situation in conclusion?
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By Larry W. Gray Give it a rest. The NFL is not going anywhere, unlike Trump.
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By Larry W. Gray We'll see who survives and who doesn't, won't we?
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By Steven Vanwormer I find it amazing that we can look at the same world and reach diametrically opposed conclusions on virtually every topic we've discussed. Trump is in, laws are being enforced, the Constitution is being "protected and defended" (like is says in every American oath of office) more people have jobs than in a decade and the stock market is up at record levels. And that's supposed to be bad. The NFL is at record lows in attendance, merchandise sales and TV viewership. Sponsors are abandoning them left and right (including their second largest already) and Congress has taken steps to pull the plug on the public funding of privately owned stadiums. There is even discussion of ending NFL tax exemptions and the anti trust exemption as well. Some estimates have the NFL at a billion dollars or more lost already since the protests started in 2016. All the while NFL revenue has been shrinking, their "sky high" expenses like player salaries have continued right along. And you think that's looking good. We'll see alright, meanwhile since you're so bullish on the NFL, maybe you should consider investing some of your own money. They could sure use it!
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  • | about 10h ago
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By Larry W. Gray Trump is an ignorant horse's *ss. Like I said before, we'll see who survives in the end, the NFL or Trump. The NFL doesn't need to collude with a hostile foreign power to win games, Trump did. And now his disgusting minions are going to start falling like bowling pins. Mueller's investigation is getting closer and closer to Trump's innermost circle. Remember, Mueller now has access to Trump's tax returns, and money laundering is a felony, so is conspiring with a hostile foreign power. Why does Trump believe Putin and not our intelligence agencies? Hmmm, I wonder. Spare me your gloom and doom predictions about the NFL, I will be sure to remind you of all this when Mueller gets to trump, if he hasn't already. Your may think that having a traitor as President is a good thing, I don't. The Russians have successfully put their chosen man in the office of President of the United States, I'm sure you must be so proud to support such a "patriot" as Trump.
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  • | about 7h ago