Topic: Israelis/Palestinians

Trump unveils Mideast peace plan, calls it best chance ever for region. Agree?

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Discussion started by Tok Staff:
Israelis are embracing a deal full of concessions to them, but Palestinians have dismissed it out of hand. Is it a good basis for negotiations or dead on arrival?
Background article: ... Read more
Results in this view: Great Plan 5% - Basis For Talks 5% - Convince Me 68% - Dead: Biased 21%
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By Bobby Sargel Placing my cards on the table by stating immediately that I as an Israeli, view with both trepidation and hope, the latest plan to arrive at an accord. I could revamp all of the hopes raised in previous and hopelessly unsuccessful attempts, or I could approach the point realistically. Ancient (incorrectly stating that all Jews were exiled by the Romans) or modern (incorrectly stating that Israel sits on land previously occupied by a nation supposedly named palestinians) history seems to have led to a newsfest of poor information.
So first the lie of land theft. As noted by history, the population of post Roman until the late 18th century Israel, was extremely sparse save for pockets of Jewish farmers and the Jewish majority city of Jerusalem.
Next we look at the current arab population, supposedly palestinian. As is happening to the U.S. today, economic migrant arabs were attracted by both the industrious Jewish influx of the 19th century (spurred by European pogroms) and the occupying Turks (in fact the Turks spurned the primitive arabs and imported European moslims). The origins of the vast majority of all arabs in Israel today, can readily be traced to their places of origin by their retention of their tribal or clan names.
We now move onto the Marxist lie of racism and apartheid. As avery recently retired Border Police member, I not only served alongside Druze, Bedouin, Circassian and Arab moslims (who guarded my back as much as I theirs), but my immediate COs were Druze and Bedouin. As are many of our doctors, academics, judges (including our High Court) and any number of professiions, so yhis does seem a little strange, given the calumny thrown agaist us.
And finally, the possibilty of success. As long as the head of the PA remains true to Yasser Arafat's dream of throwing all of the Jews into the sea, very little. If however, arab businessmen can grasp the reins, make a coalition with technologically advanced Israel for the good of all, then there will be light at the end of the tunnel.
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By William Dykeman you belonmg in long island not tel aviv none of that land is yours any more than France has a duty to give me back the fields it took from my german ancestors.. its all water under the bridge, there are no more nations.. we all need to become one people and stop fighting the mere existence of isreal is a problem
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By Bobby Sargel William Dykeman, "...there are no more nations..." I think that your ranting has been once before by one of your antecedents. "Ein volk, ein lande, ein fuehrer".
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By William Dykeman my blod is german i make no apologies for being what iam
a scorpion my frined does what is in the nature of a scorion
warriro blood flows in my viens i prefer war to subterfuge you can sneakaround and decieve people all you want i prefer the battle axe of my ancestors and again i will not apologise for being what ia ma any more than you will
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By William Dykeman my god you are such a racist, what if i had accused you of being a baby eating communist simply because you are a jew i mean face it all those communist leaders almost everyone of them is a jew.. thats a fact.. do you like it when people stereotype you and engage in bigoted comments? i'd be very careful with that, i mean why did you people inflict the world with atheistic communism, did you do that so you could kill chritians, was that the plan? you better not ever call me a nazi again.. i wont have it.. its no different than accusing you of being a genocidal communist simmply because you are a jew.. what you just did is very evil in fact i want an apology i demand it in fact
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By Bobby Sargel You do pretty well with the bigoted, uninformed comments!
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By William Dykeman a scorpion does what is in its nature
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By William Dykeman still waiting for my apology leon trotsky
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By Kirby Liberty Harris Willie tells falsehoods.
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By William Dykeman i am the only honest person here, they stole that land anyone can see that you chritians again supoort aden of theives
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By Kirby Liberty Harris lol, no the land was stolen from them, twice. LOL, yeah God put you here to correct me. lololol
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By William Dykeman 2000 years ago dude get real, any claim they had is long gone
be logical
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By William Dykeman ISREAL SOTLE THE LAND THE PALESTININAS LIVED ON FOR 2000 YEARS you f(*&^ retard
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By William Dykeman they lost it in combat and the tors=ah says the jews are ordered by god to be stateless till the messiah returns to atone for their terrible sins against god.. the messiah has not returned jews are comaded by god to rmeian withut a state
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By Bobby Sargel For Jews, the Messiah has not yet arrived. Wouldn't it be like putting the cart before the donkey!
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By Kirby Liberty Harris The Torah says no such thing. Nothing about being stateless until the Messiah returns
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By William Dykeman it says exactly that in fact wait i'm going to get a quote from the torah
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By William Dykeman Deuteronomy 4:25
I call to witness today heaven and earth that you will perish quickly from the land that you are crossing over the Jordan to possess; you will not stay long on it…And G-d will scatter you among the peoples, and you will be left few in number in the nations where G-d will lead you.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris LOL, that verse says nothing about the return of the Messiah. It says that the people of Israel will be scattered. Then other verses say that the people will be brought back tot he land.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris Deuteronomy 30:1-5:

1. And it will be, when all these things come upon you the blessing and the curse which I have set before you that you will consider in your heart, among all the nations where the Lord your God has banished you,
2. and you will return to the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul, and you will listen to His voice according to all that I am commanding you this day you and your children,
3. then, the Lord, your God, will bring back your exiles, and He will have mercy upon you. He will once again gather you from all the nations, where the Lord, your God, had dispersed you.
4. Even if your exiles are at the end of the heavens, the Lord, your God, will gather you from there, and He will take you from there.
5. And the Lord, your God, will bring you to the land which your forefathers possessed, and you will take possession of it, and He will do good to you, and He will make you more numerous than your forefathers.

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By William Dykeman well thats not how the rabbis interpret it goyum
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By Kirby Liberty Harris Not true. That is the interpretation of some. Also, there is the Christian perspective on it too.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris And I am part Jewish and not a Goyim, you putsz
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By William Dykeman i never lie god put me here to set you strait and rub your nose in your inequities
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By Kirby Liberty Harris LOL, yeah God put you here to correct me. lololol
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By William Dykeman pride comes before a fall
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Contents
1 English
1.1 Alternative forms
1.2 Etymology
1.3 Proverb
1.3.1 Translations
1.3.2 See also
English
Alternative forms
pride goes before a fall, pride goeth before a fall, pride wenteth before a fall, pride cometh before a fall
Etymology
Probably a misquote of:

1611, King James Version of the Bible, Book of Proverbs, 16:18,
Pride goeth before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall.
see also, James 4:6 (KJV): But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
and, 1 Peter 5:5 (KJV): Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
Proverb
pride comes before a fall

A person who is excessively proud will often suffer a setback or failure.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris I am not actually exhibiting pride. Just defending myself from a person exhibiting pride.
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By Vincent D'Emidio Sorry Kirb, but you 100% WRONG on this one. The Romans only expelled the troublemakers, such as the Pharisees. the TRUE Israelites were allowed to stay, and live in peace just as long as they obeyed Roman Law. Now, that wasn't much to ask of them...EVERY OTHER Province of Rome accepted Roman rule, so why couldn't the Pharisees? When they tried to launch a rebellion against Rome, the Roman Army drove them out.

Since that time, Palestine (Romans named that land, so it is not "fake") was invaded by Byzantines, Persians, Crusaders and Muslims. The Arabs built a whole empire from Spain to Mesopotamia (present day Iraq) and Palestine was just a part of it. Jews lived in that land, which was majority Arab, peacefully for Centuries.

After WW II, the land was held by England, which put together the Balfour Agreement, ceding the land to Jewish prospectors in 1948. Everything was okay until 1967 when some WARLIKE member of the Knesset became unhappy that Israel didn't have enough land (in THEIR opinion) to house all of the Immigrants that were arriving every day, so they decided to exploit Arab enmity toward them and LAUNCHED a SNEAK-ATTACK on Egypt, targeting their Air Force' planes at night, while they lay on the ground! They then attacked Syria and Jordan, STEALING their land from them!
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By Kirby Liberty Harris No not wrong at all. The Romans came in and took over people's land and demanded they be under them and follow their rules. If you are truly a rebel against the man, then you would support the Hebrews and their rebellion against Rome.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris And throughout the Roman Empire's history other provinces that they took over fought first against the takeover, then had uprisings later at various times. The land belonged to the Hebrews and it was given back to them.
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By Vincent D'Emidio "The land belonged to the Hebrews and it was given back to them"

Ahh...such a simplistic view! If the Romans didn't own the land, then England couldn't have owned it either, so who the hell are they to take land from one group and give it to another?!!! Thousands of Arabs were displaced and killed because of that move.

Alright, let's say that you're interpretation is correct...the Balfour Agreement mapped out the borders of Israel, and within those borders, the Israelis would govern. the Balfour Agreement DID NOT include the West Bank, The Golan Heights, the Sinai Peninsula and the Gaza Strip! Now, what part of "did not include" do you not understand?

Now, back to those GREAT CIVILIZERS, The Romans...there was no trouble in the other provinces while Rome was PAGAN, and STRONG!!! Once that lowlife Constantine IMPOSED "christianity" on the empire, it started to become WEAK, and that's a proven fact.
Rome was stronger when it allowed casual sex, Gladitorial games and Circuses. When those TROUBLEMAKING, ahem, "christians" started talking nonsense, they were thrown to the lions, so, problem solved! I kinda wish that our government would throw those big-mouthed evangelicals to the LIONS!!! Their screams would be like music to me!
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By Kirby Liberty Harris The Pagan Romans took a republic and tuned it into a dictatorial Empire. Most people did not fight them because they were brutal dictators. How dare you side with the man. You support forcing slaves to be murdered by evil dictators in the arena?
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By Kirby Liberty Harris The Christians were TROUBLEMAKERS, for ONLY peacefully sharing their faith and people voluntarily accepting it. Rome didn't like anything put above it. Christians refused to submit to dictators, so they were executed by thrown to the lions.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris So you support brutal dictators murdering those who refuse to submit? Christians were not the bad guys in this scenario. You are siding with the oppressors instead of the victims. I guess your hate blinds you?
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By Kirby Liberty Harris So oppressors are bad when they are people claiming to be Christian and oppressing (without murder) your peaceful 'activities', but when the Roman oppressors are murdering Christians for peaceful 'activities' it is music to your ears? Sick and hypocritical.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris Again the Israelis won the West Bank, The Golan Heights, the Sinai Peninsula and the Gaza Strip in war, when their neighbors attacked her.That is what happens in war. The loser loses land.
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By Vincent D'Emidio The only thing is that her neighbors DIDN'T ATTACK HER, Israel attacked them!!! Didn't you read what I wrote? Oh, I see...you called a SNEAK ATTACK against her Arab neighbors, a...whatchamacallit? Oh, that's right...a "Pre-Emptive Strike"!

I'm sorry that I forgot your loyalties, I kinda thought that you would put THIS COUNTRY first, but you've shown me different.
Apparently you had forgotten about the SNEAK ATTACK that the IDF launched on an AMERICAN RESEARCH SHIP known as the USS Liberty! Is it all coming back to you now? I hope so because that was a PRE-MEDITATED attack on an AMERICAN SHIP, killing 34 AMERICAN SAILORS. I'll bet that you heard about it but DISMISSED it.
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By Vincent D'Emidio Oh, so they only wanted to live in peace, eh? Around the time of Constantine in the 300s BC, there was no pograms against so-called "christians" -- they were living peacefully with their pagan neighbors. But, some of them were rather DRUNK with growing power, and Constantine was their benefactor. He launched an attack on his opponents, and he "CLAIMS" to have seen a cross in the sky inscripted with the words "En hoc signo vinces", and so he used that VERY MORTAL tactic of claiming that God intended for him to be ruler! Y'know, ANYBODY can say that, and it means nothing.

Constantine declared Christianity to be the State religion, and that's when the pograms began...IN REVERSE!!! the ruling bible-thumpers IMPOSED a strict set of lifestyle rules on the pagan populace! So don't talk to me about "peaceful" fanatics, there ain't no such thing!

They should've thrown ALL of them to the lions, I would've!
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By Kirby Liberty Harris Wrong. The history is the Arabs states attacked Israel after Britain declared a plan with a two state solution, then five Arab states that were Egypt, Transjordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq with additional contingents came from Saudi Arabia and Yemen.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris "I'm sorry that I forgot your loyalties, I kinda thought that you would put THIS COUNTRY first, but you've shown me different." I do put the USA first. I think we are talking about two different wars.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris Vince, the Christians were trying to live in peace before Constantine faked being a Christian to contain the growing Christian threat. The Christians were peaceful and trying to live peacefully. The Romans were killing them, because they refused to submit to the dictator of Caesar before God.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris The lion thing happened before, Constantine faked being a Christian to control the Christians, whose peaceful growing religion was taking over, peacefully.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris All the emperors saw them as a threat, not because they were violent or dangerous because they wanted political power, but because the tenants of Christ were weakening the power of the dictatorship and Rome's evil practices of Empire.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris So you are for authoritarian dictators killing innocent peaceful men. Feeding them to lions. Sick. Surprised you aren't for Trump and his authoritarian ilk.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris Again Vince, I think we are talking about two different historical periods.
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By Vincent D'Emidio First of all, the IDF launched that SNEAK attack on the USS Liberty at the SAME TIME that the IDF launched a SNEAK ATTACK on Egypt. They BLAMED the Egyptians for that in an effort to make the Americans give Israel their "blessings" for that IMPERIALISTIC war.

It's the same thing in Rome...now, you are talking to a Student of History, I know all about Ancient civilizations...turning "christians" into Lion fodder happened early in the Empire. At the time of Constantine, a FALSE "christian" as you said yourself, the Christians and pagans were living peacefully in Rome. But human beings, being what we are, become greedy over time, and "christians" are no exception to that rule.
They recruited Constantine as their, ah, "Messiah", to propel them into power. Of course Constantine went along with that because it left him in a position of total power.

He was one of the WORST Emperors.
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By Bobby Sargel Vincent, or should I refer to you as the "Student of History" (your ego related emphasis, not mine)? In any event, as a mere participant in said history, Israel hardly made what you choose to mock as "a sneak attack". Had America pre-empted Japan's attack on Pearl Harbour, would you also have described that as a sneak attack?
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By Vincent D'Emidio Oh, are you ACTUALLY comparing the Pearl Harbor attack to what some Israeli "leaders" thought was a coming attack? How about when the IDF launches "Pre-Emptive Strikes" on Palestinian villages? That must be OK to you, I suppose. I also suppose that the Israeli ATTACK on the USS Liberty, which KILLED 34 American Sailors, was OK to you as well! If it was so justifiable, then why did the Israelis TRY to blame the attack on Egypt?

Speaking of egos...if you ACTUALLY believe that those attacks were justifiable, then you shouldn't call me a Student of History...you should call me a PROFESSOR of History! It would appear that you need some schoolin'.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris Vince, again. We are talking about two different Israeli wars. I am referring to the one shortly after 1948.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris Christians did not recruit Constantine. He took over Christianity, because it was freely and voluntarily growing and he saw it as a threat to the brutal Empire. Rome before that was evilly murdering peaceful Christians.
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By William Dykeman yes he did the irony was a pagan decided what would be in the bible and what would not
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By William Dykeman thats usually done afte hamas or al fatah plants a bomb in a jewish market and blows women nad kids to bits. what would you have them do, send a strongly wriiten letter? an eye for an eye
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By William Dykeman i will say this once Israel got the upper hand it simply engaged in ethnic cleansing of the region, that was not part of the UN agreement
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By Kirby Liberty Harris A pagan did not decide what would and would not be in the bible. The council rejected books that were 'out there' and contradicted the rest of books.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris Israelis have done no ethnic cleansing. Ever since they got the original land back, her Islamic neighbors have tried to destroy her. What Israel does is in defense of her people. Now, I do think the Israeli government goes to far sometimes.