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Topic: US Politics

Is Donald Trump saving, destroying or just redefining the US presidency?

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  • Votes: 56
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Discussion started by Tok Staff:
Trump is changing how President's deal with the electorate, Congress, foreign leaders and the media. Is this a needed reset or destroying the foundations?
Background article: ... Read more
Results in this view: Save/redefine 9% - No Big Change 4% - Convince Me 9% - Destroying It 78%
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Anonymous-user
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By Larry W. Gray The sooner that ignorant, narcissistic maniac is impeached, the better for us all.
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By Ronald Nixon On what grounds ?
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By Larry W. Gray Obstruction of justice.
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By Ronald Nixon It will never happen. Anyone who dares bring the charge will be fired.
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By Larry W. Gray The same charge that took Nixon's presidency down.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris Trump is destroying the presidency, BUT so have most presidents including Lincoln, Teddy, FDR, Johnson, Nixon, Carter, Daddy Bush, Clinton, W Bush, Obama and others not mentioned. Good ones in the modern age were Kennedy, Reagan and Coolidge.
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By Ronald Nixon Trump is restoring GOD and America. After 8 years of Ubama running a criminal organization out the white house, Trump must purge this nation.
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By William Dykeman he has created hell on earth
Anonymous-user
by anon-5d87 Leave Obama alone!
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By Ronald Nixon Not until he is in prison
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By William Dykeman FDR WAS GOD lincoln came close we need strong leaders
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By Kirby Liberty Harris FDR and Lincoln were both tyrants.
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By William Dykeman Well anyone that would think that is a crack pot.. but thanks for making it crystal clear to the world you dont need to be taken seriously, both men were absolute saviors, you would have no freedom there would be no usa as you know it if these men had not been strong enough to save it from true tyranny.. without lincoln slavery would never haver been abolished.. and the union would have been dissolved and the surviving halves would have degenerated into third rate police states, and FDR? the rest of the world had hitler and mussolini and stalin we got fdr and the neww deal i say we for damnded lucky okay you got some taxes and some regualtion you dont like but without that bigger government the whole world would have some sort of hitler or stalin in charge... so whinning is allowed but not taken seriously.. god bless both fdr and abraham lincoln.. one made my family republicans the other made us democrats.. oh and god bless teddy roosevelt he made us vote progressive bull moose
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By Kirby Liberty Harris NO, it makes me observant. Lincoln suspended the Constitution to stop people from making their own choices and FDR had a dry cleaner arrested for charging to little a fee to his customers. Pretty tyrant things to anyone who learns these facts.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris I think it is you who can't be taken seriously, if you don't see the tyrannical acts these men committed. Not saying these men didn't do some good things, but the good doesn't outweigh the bad.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris Also, the new deal was a bad deal, and did not save us. I can see the argument for Lincoln being an absolute savior, but NOT FDR at all. A tyrant through and through, fighting other tyrants.
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By William Dykeman no it wast it was the bast thing ever for the middle class it created the middle class https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfGZJDPWCzM

Guess What? The New Deal Worked!

The result of that consensus was the greatest expansion of the middle class the country has ever experienced. The growth of the economy from the 1940s through the 1960s was widely shared. Conversely, when the economy did go into recession during those decades, the supporting frameworks set up by the New Deal helped keep those downturns relatively short.
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By William Dykeman the tyranny was the maen they acted against slavery was tyrrany the wealth and opreion of the rich poverty was tyrrany you are the tyrant

you dont deserve to be free by the way you dont care about others

you should pay hgher taxes

your guns should be confiscated
you should be prohibited from hate speech
your freedom isnt important
what important is liberating people white men like you oppress
you are the enemy you have always been the enemy
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By William Dykeman the new deal created the american middle class there really ws no middle class before roosevelt there were rich americans and poor americans.. thats what socialism does equalize things just enough to give the majority a chance to grab their piece of the pie and it worked amazingly well.. your life would be sh*& if there had never been an FDR or a new deal.. youd be living in a trailer and working for 3 dollars an hour
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By Kirby Liberty Harris BS, the new deal failed. What boomed the economy was the fact that when the war decimated Europe we picked up all the manufacturing and sold to the world.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris There was tyranny in the North and South, but Lincoln furthered it by suspending the Constitution. He said he cared not if the slaves were free, just the preservation of the union. Every country around the world ended slavery without a war.

you should pay hgher taxes

your guns should be confiscated
you should be prohibited from hate speech
your freedom isnt important
what important is liberating people white men like you oppress
you are the enemy you have always been the enemy
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By William Dykeman you dont deserve freedom the people who need freedom are the people white males like you have oppressed
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By Kirby Liberty Harris I posted your statements about me not deserving freedoms above, and answer them here: I do deserve to be free, so do you. You are clueless about me, because I care about EVERYBODY. I and everybody deserves the lowest taxes possible. My guns should NEVER be confiscated. I do BOT use hate speech, but scumbags who speak it should be allowed to speak it. Mine and everybody's freedom is important. I oppress NO ONE. I am for liberating ALL people, no matter what race. I am NOT the enemy AND have NEVER been the enemy. You saying these things show you are a tyrant and are the enemy where you would take the freedom from others.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris William, are you white? Have you oppressed others? Well I have not oppressed anyone. I am for freedom of all.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris The statement of a tyrant: "you dont deserve freedom the people who need freedom are the people white males like you have oppressed"
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By Kirby Liberty Harris William Dykeman, I will live free and continue to fight for all others to live free as well, which includes fighting for you to live free too.
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By William Dykeman i will continue to remind the world that socialism is inevitable like it or not its coming
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By William Dykeman and i a for one am looking forward to the revolution
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By Kirby Liberty Harris What does socialism have to do with my comment. I want freedom for all.
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By William Dykeman Galatians 2:10 ►
Verse (Click for Chapter)
New International Version
All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I had been eager to do all along.

New Living Translation
Their only suggestion was that we keep on helping the poor, which I have always been eager to do.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris This is a message for private charity, NOT government forcing you to care for others. QUIT TWISTING SCRIPTURE!!!
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By William Dykeman is it? what about this.. As much as we hate taxes, as much as the tax system is corrupt and unfair, as much as there are far better things our money could go towards—the Bible commands, yes, commands us to pay our taxes. Romans 13:1-7 makes it clear that we are to submit ourselves to the government. The only instance in which we are allowed to disobey the government is when it tells us to do something the Bible forbids. The Bible does not forbid paying taxes. In fact, the Bible encourages us to pay taxes. Therefore, we must submit to God and His Word—and pay our taxes.

Romans 13:1–7
Embed

Submission to the Authorities
13 Let every person pbe subject to the governing authorities. For qthere is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you rwill receive his approval, 4 for she is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, tan avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God’s wrath but also ufor the sake of conscience. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. 7 vPay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris 1st, not everyone is Christian. I am against forcing others to obey a religion that is not theirs. 2nd, context. That was intended for people under a ruler they did not elect. We are a nation by the people, so we are the authorities. Those who created our system did not want direct taxes, but only revenue raising to pay for basics like post offices, post roads, navy, raising armies, ect.
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By William Dykeman arent you christian? thats the question
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By Kirby Liberty Harris Yes, I am Christian. But I think many on the left and right twist the meaning of scripture to fit their agendas for power and wealth.
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By Larry W. Gray I am a Christian, just not like most of them. Those pious, self-righteous churches and "Christians," so eager to point out the error in others. "But it says so in the Bible, if you put everything together in a context of my doing," is a frequent comment. John 3:16? "It isn't technically true because one needs to read other "passages" to put it in the correct context." Matthew 7:1-5? It doesn't mean that you should never judge the sins of others, but everyone knows that, without the right "context," one can't understand what that REALLY means, to gently point out error in others. And you have the balls to accuse others of "TWISTING SCRIPTURE?" Maybe if more so-called "Christians" would stop correcting others, as a Biblical know-it-all, and start accepting people as they are, whoever they are whatever they are, and show the spirit of true Christianity by being an example to others. Either John 3:16 IS EITHER TRUE, BY ITSELF, WITH NO QUALIFICATIONS, OR IT IS NOT. If it needs to be "qualified" by other, diverse "scriptures" then what good is it? Matthew 7:1-5 either is true, or it is not. If one needs to read other "scriptures" to put Matthew in "context," what good is it? The problem is, that most people will choose other scriptures than you would to qualify why it's okay to judge others, even using God as an excuse. You can't see the forest through the trees. You know the letter of the "law," in the Bible, but you completely overlook the spirit of it.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris Actually, I do not overlook the spirit of the law at all. Quite the opposite. But the bible says the spirit is truth. The bible tells us to take the full counsel of God and to use scripture to interpret scripture. If one takes one verse out of context to suit what they think, then that is taking the letter of the law via one verse to suit one's theology.
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By Larry W. Gray My point, that you seem to have missed, is that neither you, or any other Christian, is justified in passing judgment of ANY kind on others. Whether you cite any Bible verse at all, is not the issue. The issue is one of personal beliefs of an individual, being used by that individual, to correct any errors or sins in their own life, is the important point. The problem arises when a Christian thinks they have the right to point out the sins or omissions of others, that is between them and God. THAT is the spirit of the law. There are hundreds of millions of Christians who interpret the Bible in a million different ways, which one is the "correct" opinion? You qualify even John 3:16, saying it is not complete within itself, because it is moderated by other verses elsewhere. WHERE did you get the authority to alter or "moderate" a verse in the Bible? Because you read everything in the perfectly correct "context?" You can say what God REALLY means, because you understand the Bible as a whole? John 3:16 is very specific; "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." So, evidently, Jesus' death on the cross was not enough to pay for the sins of all, that faith in Jesus Christ is not enough, in itself?
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By William Dykeman but not you eh? (sarcasm)
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By Kirby Liberty Harris You miss my point entirely. I SAID that you can NOT judge the person, NUT CAN judge the actual action aka the sin based on God's word, not one's opinion.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris And the Bible plainly says to use scripture to interpret scripture and take the WHOLE counsel of God, and plainly tells us to correct another Christian and explain to nonbeleivers what sin and salvation is and is not.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris Jesus' death on the cross was enough to pay for the sins of all, that faith in Jesus Christ is enough, in itself. Nothing I said says otherwise.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris TOK cut me off. The Bible tells Christians they must point out when a brother is in sin, but do it with love and make sure the log is out of their eye first, at least on that particular sin.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris I am just as much a sinner as anyone else. It does not say you must be sinless to correct, for that is impossible. We are to show by example and correct in love.
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By Larry W. Gray One sinner "pointing out' the sins of others. What hypocrisy! You are right about one thing, it is IMPOSSIBLE to be sinless. So maybe you should dial back your "corrections" of others and see to your own sins and shortcomings. But that would be a "Christian" thing to do, even if very few Christians ever do it. They can find whatever they need in the Bible that will allow them to "point out" the sins of others. Like I said, just because you can, doesn't always, or ever, mean you should. But what fun would that be, right? All of a sudden Christians start living their religion, rather than using it to beat people over the head with it, even when they do it "lovingly." Give me a break!
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By Kirby Liberty Harris Actually, you are arguing with the bible. It says it. I am only saying what it says. It is not hypocrisy at all. We are all sinners and the bible tells us to correct a brother. AND I don't go around correcting other's sins (unless it is severe), so I guess I am a bad Christian.
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By Larry W. Gray If that isn't the most horses**t response I have ever gotten, it's close. "Bible tells Christians they MUST point out when a brother is in sin, but do it with LOVE and make sure the log is out of their eye first, at least on that PARTICULAR sin." I guess in your world, sins are graded in terms of whether a Christian commits that PARTICULAR sin or not. If not, you are allowed to "correct" your "brother's sin, I guess that means that if you ARE committing the same sin as your "brother," you need to keep your self-righteous mouth shut, right? Is there a listing of every possible sin somewhere that a person can see to determine if they are, or are not, committing a particular sin, so they can, or cannot correct their brother? This is how ridiculous your so-called "theology" is. DO let me know when you are sin free, then I will gladly admit that you have every right in the world to "point out" the sins of others.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris You are arguing with the Bible. That is what it says. Before you point out the speck in your brother's eye, take the log out of yours. That verse says to do it BUT take your log out first.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris The bible NEVER says you have to be sin free to point out the sin of others, NEVER. Show the verse where it says that. Matthew 18:15 ► "If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris Judge here means do not condemn. If you are not sinning in a certain area you can talk to others about that area, in love not condemnation. If you sin in that area, you can not address their sin until you stop your sin in that an area. I stopped abusing drugs, so I can talk to others about their abusing drugs, as long as I don't condemn them for it.

“Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. 3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.
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By Larry W. Gray Yeah, I heard you the first time.
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By Larry W. Gray I'm not like you, I don't search out Biblical verses to justify my self-righteous judgmentalism and need to "correct" others.
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By Larry W. Gray You should read the second part of your post, again. You obviously don't understand what it means. You are in NO position to "correct" the sins of others. Hypocrite.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris Neither do I. 1st, I didn't search them out. I learned them over time through regular bible reading. 2nd, I am no more self-righteous than you or any other person, and I don't think I am better than you or anyone else. 3rd, didn't you read where I said I rarely ever correct others, so I must be a bad Christian.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris Forth, we are ALL in a position to correct others according to the Bible, as long as we are not sinning in that area, we do it with love and we don't condemn the person according to the bible. I am not being hypocritical at all, just being biblical.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris I do understand it. It doesn't say you can't correct a brother. It says you must take the log (particular sin you are actively part of) out of your eye first. "first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye." The log is the particular sin you are actively part of.
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By Larry W. Gray If you "rarely" correct others, why do it at all? Why should they listen to you?
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By Larry W. Gray Where do you get this "as long as we are not sinning in THAT area?" Are there "areas" of sin? Like I said, why should anyone else listen to you? You are as much of a sinner as anyone else, see to your own "corrections," and let other do it for themselves as well.
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By Larry W. Gray Sin is sin, do you not understand that? You seem to have the idea that since you don't sin in certain "areas," whatever that is supposed to mean, that that means you are entitled to "correct" people who DO sin in that "area?" You need to check your pride at the door, dude. When the Bible mentions the "log" in your eye, it means your own sins make you a poor candidate to cast the "speck" out of your brother's eye. It is specifically dealing with hypocrisy. You don't seem to grasp that idea.
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By Larry W. Gray Or maybe you just don't want to. Or maybe you think that in some "areas," you are superior to others, due to the lack of your sin "in that area." By the way, which "areas" are you "sin free" in? I would love to hear your answer to that question.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris Why do it at all? Because God tells me to. Because the Bible tells us to correct our brother, but first correct ourselves. Again, if I am getting drunk I can't correct a bather for getting drunk, but if I am/get sober, then I can correct him.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris Tok cut me off again. This is more answers to Larry Gray's above questions.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris If the verse only means "your own sins make you a poor candidate to cast the "speck" out of your brother's eye", then why does God tell us in other verses to correct our brother when he is in sin?
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By Larry W. Gray Because, genius, you are a sinner too. You get out of the Bible what you WANT to get out of the Bible. I am a Christian, and read the Bible, but feel no need, or COMMAND from God, to point out the sins of others. That is a purely voluntary action on your part, you simply think you are better than others, in certain "sins," therefore you are justified in 'correcting" them.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris I know I am a sinner too. I do NOT think I am better in ANY way. I feel no need to correct anyone either. I am only pointing out the bible tells us to correct other believers and tells us how to do it biblically and un-hypocritically.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris I am sin free from drunkenness for one example..
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By Larry W. Gray "Drunkenness?" No, you are not "free" of that sin, you just aren't an alcoholic. You act like that makes you some sort of enhanced virtue. You are a self-righteous, narcissistic, self-absorbed individual who gets his kicks out of pointing out the shortcomings of others. You were probably the kid who wanted to be "Hall Monitor" in grade school. other people's sins are none of your f*****g business. Mind your own sins and "correct" them, before you start playing Solomon the Wise.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris I do NOT get a kick in pointing out the flaws in others. I told you I don't go seeking out pointing out anyone's sins. I NEVER go after people. Which means I am NOT following the bible, since it tells us to correct other believers IF we see they are in sin.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris No, I was an alcoholic and God delivered me. Been sober 25 years. No, it do not act like it gives me enhanced virtue. I am not being self righteous, narcissistic or self-absorbed.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris I am NOT telling you what I do, ONLY what the bible says. I know I am a sinner too. Never wanted to be a Hall Monitor. I used to beat up snitches.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris I do NOT think I am better in ANY way. I feel no need to correct anyone either. I am only pointing out the bible tells us to correct other believers and tells us how to do it biblically and un-hypocritically.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris Also Larry, you correct people all the time, Christian and non Christian for sinful actions, like correcting me for 'pride', saying I am 'hypocritical' and you judge (condemn), the main purpose of the verse by saying people aren't real "Christians".
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By Larry W. Gray I am not "correcting" you on Biblical grounds, just pointing out your hypocrises with quotes from the Bible. Your brand of "Christianity" is all too common among many so-called "Christians." Maybe if you started looking for the good in ;people, instead of compulsively ferreting out their shortcomings IN YOUR EYES, you would be a better person.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris You are correcting in biblical grounds, because you are referencing behavior involving Christianity to a believer.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris Again, I do not look for the bad or sin in people. I do look for the good. The bible tells us to look for the good and encourage others. It also tells us when we see a brother in sin to correct them. So I must be a bad Christian, because I NEVER do that.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris You are judging (condemning) me and bearing false witness. You are being hypocritical and un-biblical by doing so. Judge my actions all you want.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris There is no distinction between secular and religious sin/wrong doing. The verse covers all judgement of wrong and not condemning others, NOT just things in regard to Christianity. All wrong actions are ungodlly/sin or they are not wrong.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris This verse is telling you not to judge (condemn) others. Because you are a sinner you can NOT condemn others. And IF you are going to point out another's sin (which the Bible tells us to do), then you can't be engaging in willful sin.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris Also, your argument of never being able to tell another when they act in a wrong/un-Godly/sinful manner falls flat. Let's say a neighbor or minister is molesting children, according to your argument we can NOT confront them on their sin because we are sinners. BS.
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By Larry W. Gray If a neighbor was molesting a child, they should be arrested and held for trial, and prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Who cares whether anyone considers it a sin or not?
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By Kirby Liberty Harris I agree with what should happen to them, but it is still relevant to the verse. Do you judge their actions? Do you judge (condemn) them?
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By Kirby Liberty Harris We can correct, we just can't be hypocritical in doing it. I get the verse is mainly about hypocrisy, but it shows you can correct if you are not being hypocritical.
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By Larry W. Gray Another "explanation" by you, justifying your need to 'correct" others. I am tired of listening to your endless excuses and justifications for being a nosey, prying jerk that only does it because "God" tells you to. You do it because it makes you feel superior, and that's a fact! Go play your games with someone else, I have had it with you. I have never run into anyone who is as "sure" of his "qualifications" for judging and correcting the sins of others. You are a sinner, just as bad as any other sinner, you just won't admit it. Your claim to be "sin free" in "certain areas," is laughable, but turns out to be not very funny, at all. Mind your own business, Sir. I will make no further comments or replies to you on this topic, so save your breath.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris Again, I have no need to correct others. I do not do it. At least no more than you or others do. I do not seek out the sins of others and have NO desire to correct them. I am not nosy or prying. I mind my own business.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris I am not justifying ANYTHING. I am ONLY telling you what the bible says on the matter. I don't feel superior. I am NOT sure of my qualifications of judging others, since I don't do it any more or less than you are and MOST OTHERS DO IT.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris I am a sinner JUST AS BAD AS ANY OTHER and I have admitted it several times on these threads. I am sin free in certain areas, as are you and EVERY human on this planet.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris You are judging (condemning) me, which is in violation of the verse. And means you are acting hypocritical.
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By Larry W. Gray No human being is sin free. In your world it is...I sin in this area, but not in this area, but I do sin in another area, but I am not sinning in TWO other areas, so I guess that makes me sin free 2 out of three times. Do you keep a scoreboard of your sins and "un"sins?
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By Kirby Liberty Harris I NEVER said a human was ever sin free. I said are they willfully committing sin. In my world nothing makes you sin free. The point is you don't have to be sin free to judge a person's actions as wrong OR God is wrong when he tells us to do it.
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By Kirby Liberty Harris No I do not keep a scoreboard for me or others, nor should we.